You just aren't getting it. The reason I am using numerous examples of intelligent minorities is because i agree that just because a person is "darker skinned", it does not predispose them to lower intelligence. It is the CULTURE or ETHNICITY that predisposes them to this. It is the ways and beliefs that have been passed down for GENERATIONS by their families, it is something in their genetic code that predisposes them to certain belief just like it predisposes them to certain bone structures, obesity, diseases or even homosexuality. It is not because of society (i.e. "the man") or current economic situations. There are PLENTY of federally funded programs ( i work for the federal government and know the scholarships and programs offered) and private institutions that are willing to help certain minority groups rise from poverty if they were REALLY willing to work hard for it. But, in the USA, most individuals' DNA have been so diluted or intermingled that these cultural characteristics are becoming harder to attribute to a certain culture or group of people. This is what you get when you google "does race exist":

"Over the past few years, scientists have collected data about the genetic constitution of populations around the world in an effort to probe the link between ancestry and patterns of disease. These data are now providing answers to several highly emotional and contentious questions: Can genetic information be used to distinguish human groups having a common heritage and to assign individuals to particular ones? Do such groups correspond well to predefined descriptions now widely used to specify race? And, more practically, does dividing people by familiar racial definitions or by genetic similarities say anything useful about how members of those groups experience disease or respond to drug treatment? In general, we would answer the first question yes, the second no, and offer a qualified yes to the third."

I and other people who have commented on this page are using examples from our own lives to illustrate that individuals CAN overcome economic hardships that they were BORN into if they really tried. But, as I said, this is the USA. We should really look at this issue on a global scale. Watson was talking about Africans, not black americans.

Your comments on Affirmative Action are just silly. Irish people were used as slaves in England, Australia and even America for YEARS, but you don't hear me preaching for reparations or affirmative action for myself. And women were treated as second class citizens in most places in the US until the early 1900s. We weren't even allowed to vote ( "because we had inferior intelligence") until the 20s. When is this whole affirmative action thing going to end? When is enough enough? I mean, slavery is STILL occuring in places like Africa---just look at Darfur. Black people enslaving black people. For us, it is OVER.

And I also know about the Egyptians. That was taught to us in world history in high school. But where does Egypt sit now? Who took those basic mathematical principals and ran with them? The Greeks. Plus, mathematical principals were developed independently as well by other cultures such as the Chinese. Like I said before, it is all in the receptivity of certain cultures.

What really strikes me is that in this very article, the last two paragraphs give the reasons why you shouldn’t believe Dr. Watson comments (using scientific thought), and yet people still want to hold on to their bias and belief.

Why do I need more than 1 example? While learning proofs in high school geometry I was taught if any part of a statement is false, the whole statement is false. So if you tell me ALL balloons are SCARLET, how many GRAY balloons do I need to find to make your statement false? Answer: ONE.

There have been smart black people all throughout world history and I shouldn’t have to list every one of them to prove anything. I would guess you are not aware that ancient Egyptians (and last I checked Egypt is in Africa) were using fractions in mathematics long before Europeans. Here’s a quote from The Mathematics Dept of the State University of New York, Buffalo, “You may find it amazing that fractions, as we know them, barely existed, for the european civilization, until the 17'th century. Even in the 19th century, a method called russian peasant fractions, was the same used by the Europeans since they met the African, and the Egyptians at least since 4000BC in Egypt. As the method was found on several papyrus, we now call this technique egyptian fractions.”

In any case you already gave 2 more examples of intelligent black men. Do I need to give examples of less intelligent white people? I have worked with many white people who exhibit low intelligence. I am personally aware of several white people who would like to get a welfare check rather than work. I am also personally aware of several who think studying hard is a waste of time and would rather work in menial labor jobs. Am I to take my experience and say that all white people are lazy and not smart?

In fact, in MY experience I know of several black families where EVERY child is either a doctor, lawyer, scientist or aviator. These supposedly intellectually inferior black people are smarter than almost every white person I know. I could use my experience and say from my perspective all black people are smart and driven to succeed. The point is this - we all have different experiences with different people, but you have to remember that your set of experiences DOES NOT make it a SCIENTIFIC FACT that Africans and African Americans are intellectually inferior due to genetics. You may believe whatever you want to believe, but that doesn’t make it science.

And if  you want to find a reason not to like lazy and not driven black people, go right ahead, I don’t like lazy and not driven people either. The difference between you and me is that I don’t try to make racial statements about lazy people - some people are just lazy.

Regarding Affirmative Action, I hope I was clear in my statement that America has always had Affirmative Action, it favored white people for hundreds of years, and minorities for about thirty years. Enough said.

As for the concept of race, having a government policy doesn’t make something true or not true. America used to have government policies that supported slavery, did that make it right? Here’s a quote from a Scientific American article titled “Does Race Exist” By Michael J. Bamshad and Steve E. Olson, “If races are defined as genetically discrete groups, no. But researchers can use some genetic information to group individuals into clusters with medical relevance...” I believe this is the prevailing thought among scientists, but just google “does race exist” and you’ll see many articles you can read to draw your own conclusions.

And yes, I am aware that if race doesn’t exist then most of what we are talking about doesn’t make any sense. However since this discussion revolves around European “white skinned” and African “darker skinned” people, for the sake of argument I’ll continue to use the term “race”. Someday, it would be nice if we could get past that.

Let me say this again, because it is an important point. Your experiences and your biases and your beliefs DO NOT make a SCIENTIFIC FACT. Using Galileo again, remember that in his time everyone’s experience, bias, and belief (faith) told them the world was flat. His SCIENCE proved them differently. There is NO SCIENCE to support the experience, bias, and beliefs that Africans and African Americans are intellectually inferior due to genetics.

Amen, phaerelastra. I've been through the same situation. I've also lived in very low income parts of my community as I was WORKING MY WAY THROUGH SCHOOL. I worked at a pizza joint and came home smelling like grease and onions every night. I worked 40 hours a week and went to school full time. I did this for 4 years. I got no scholarships from the government because of my race and my family is not wealthy by any means. In fact, we had to file for bankruptcy when I was in high school because my mother hurt her back so badly that she could not work, let alone stand, for quite a while. Our car got repossessed and we lost our home. My family used foodstamps for 6 months just so that we could eat. It took us a LONG time to get back on our feet, but we did. Long hours at work, double and sometimes triple shifts for my mother.

Now I am married, own a home, have a great job, and am even persuing further education. Not because I have to, but because I want to. This is NOT a socio-economic situation, as much as people would LOVE to think so. If that were the case, I nor my friend Octavia would not be where we are today (she is a very successful analyst working for the government). I worked HARD for everything I own and everything I have achieved. As a matter of fact, I used to subscribe to the popular philosophy that minorities can't achieve because of their economic status, but then I read a book that changed my way of thinking, "Race and Culture" by Thomas Sowell. It was written by a VERY intelligent black man (in fact, in my humble opinion, he's a genius). Check it out, MrXLABeach, it just might open your eyes. A quarter of the book is footnotes. The author has REALLY done his research. It adresses the ethnicity issue on a global scale, not just in the USA, and in the text he explains why he has done this.

Oh, and we ALL know about George Washington Carver. In fact, I did a paper on him in high school. A brilliant man. But, c/mon, give us more examples. Oh, and if anthropologists believe that the concept of race doesn't exist, then why do we have so many governement policies based around that exact concept. I'm pretty sure YOU aren't out there preaching against affirmative action. Here's a quote for you from another famous black man, Frederick Douglass,

  "Everybody has asked the question. . ."What shall we do with the Negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature's plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone!"

A couple of hundred years from now when they are discussing what really caused the downfall of America, in my opinion they will most likely say America’s downfall was the result of a LACK OF CRITICAL THINKING skills in the population (which I think is one step further than common sense and more closely approaches wisdom).

For example, Dr. Watson makes a statement that has no basis in fact or science, yet people want to use it to justify their own bias without thinking it through. Dr. Watson is a real scientist and someone who would be very knowledgeable in the scientific method. So, if he really believed he could prove his statement, he would have written a paper, published it in a scientific journal, and then had it peer reviewed. However this is not what happened. He made a statement to the press, which his peers PROMPTLY REFUTED and UNIVERSALLY CONDEMNED as wrong and not based on any scientific fact. Shortly after that, Dr. Watson himself comes out and says the his statements are not based on any scientific evidence. Now MY common sense tells me that when all of the scientists in the world disagree, and then the guy who originally made the statement retracts it, my critical thinking tells me this statement is not true.

This also makes a point about Galileo. Here are a couple of quotes from Wikipedia on Galilo:

“Galileo Galilei pioneered the use of quantitative experiments whose results could be analyzed with mathematical precision...”

“Although he tried to remain loyal to the Catholic Church, his adherence to experimental results, and their most HONEST (emphasis mine) interpretation, led to a rejection of blind allegiance to authority, both philosophical and religious, in matters of science. In broader terms, this aided to separate science from both philosophy and religion; a major development in human thought.”

He understood the scientific method and I think it’s wrong for people to use his name when referencing Dr. Watson’s comments which even Dr. Watson says have no basis in science.

Let me address the point about the fact that there are no black people in a particular math & science class? Let’s think about that. Well, black people only make up about 10% of all Americans. So, as most of you know, it’s not uncommon for people in all grades (elementary - college) to never ever attend a class with a black person. Given the sheer number of people in America, and the % of population that actually does go to college, and the % of black people with the means and opportunity to go to college, the number of colleges in America, and the fact that no matter the race, only a small percent major in math and sciences, it would not surprise me that you wouldn’t find a black person in a math or science class. See how if you just took that statement on face value it would appear to support your bias, but when you think about it critically it loses it’s steam?

As for blacks in sports, this may come as a surprise to many of you, but many black kids see that as their only way out of the ghetto (for a myriad of reasons). Having said that, I didn’t excel in basketball or football, but I did notice a lot of my black friends who would spend hours and hours and hours practicing their “moves”. And even then they weren’t the best in my school. I was on the track team and the fastest guy on our team was white.

Of the roughly 30 million black people in America, you can count all of them on all of the sports teams and it wouldn’t even add up to 1% of the total number of black people.

You can’t make statements about an entire race based on <1%. Heck, I could say that since 95% of serial killers and child molesters are white (even though they only make up a small % of the total white population), then there must be gene in white people that causes that behavior. Of course that would be offensive to say (and patently wrong), but people make those kinds of statements about black people all the time and think nothing of it - which I also find sad and telling.

It seems that America tends to fixate on the athletes rather than the great black scientists like George Washington Carver (look him up on Wikipedia if you want to read about someone truly impressive).

Actually, here’s a quote from the Wiki article on George Washington Carver that is relevant to this discussion, “One of his most important roles was that the fame of his achievements and many talents undermined the widespread stereotype of the time that the black race was intellectually inferior to the white race. In 1941, "Time" magazine dubbed him a "Black Leonardo," a reference to the white polymath Leonardo da Vinci [5]”.

I had a point to make about the fact that I could go find just as many low IQ white people in poor areas as you can find low IQ black people but I’ll just let it go for now...

And by the way, many anthropologists today believe the concept of race doesn’t exist - but in my opinion most people want to hold on to their biases so much that I’m not sure when we (the human race) will make headway on that discussion.

My whole point is this - unless America stops taking statements for face value and starts to THINK CRITICALLY about what they read and hear, we’re in bigger trouble than we think we already are.

I have to agree with those who have had the courage to speak openly about race and the differences that exist.  I am a white, 25 year old woman, and I understand and recognize the shortcomings that might stem from my gender as well as my race. I'm not going to hide from the fact that I will never be as fast or as strong as a man, nor will I hide from the idea that Asian people, for example, have more of a knack for intelligence than I do.  However, I also test in the 98th percentile in every standardized test and IQ test I have taken across my lifetime.  There is more to intelligence than simply being smart, no matter what race you are.  Wisdom hugely modifies a given person's intelligence.  If common sense can dictate how to make a decision as opposed to straight book-smarts, then common sense (aka wisdom) is more beneficial.

I think another thing that most of you don't realize is that you may have very limited experience in dealing with black people and other minorities in their own environment.  Now before anyone takes that the wrong way, allow me to explain.  I have not always owned my own home and lived in a decent, predominantly white area.  That IS how I grew up, though.  Once I lived on my own, I had the joyful experience of living in not one, but 6 different economically unstable, unsavory, low-income areas.  In some cases, I lived in a predominantly Hispanic area.  Other times, it was ALL black.  The difference in intelligence is striking, whether some of you want to admit it or not.

In the Hispanic areas, I noticed that even though most people there had the capacity to learn two languages, they didn't learn either one to its fullest potential, making them sound unintelligent in both languages.  One would think it would be a benefit to be bilingual, but apparently not.  In the black areas, people are too concerned with the vast number of children they create and going out to have a good time instead of spending time learning.  The facts do not simply boil down to a lack of economic resources, it boils down to a lack of desire.  It is "wiser" for them to walk their happy behinds to the nearest Social Services office and live on welfare and a job at Burger King as opposed to enrolling in one of the city's 5 different colleges.  Financial aid is simple to get and even provides income to live on.  I lived this EVERY DAY for more than 5 years in a time when I was bettering myself by going to school while living with the same challenges as most of my neighbors.

I don't want people to think I'm a bigot because I feel this way.  I lived it, I watched it, and I asked friends and coworkers (yes, when I worked at Burger King, for example) why they didn't want to get out of the situation they were in.  For most, it was considered a waste of time.  So don't jump to the idea that black people are struggling, but they really WANT to get ahead.  I'm sure there are some in any area that want that for themselves...plenty more want nothing to do with it.  It starts in elementary school...my daughter has always been an inner city schools, the only white girl surrounded by black children.  Never once has it bothered her that she was different, until she realized she wasn't different because she was white, she was different because she wanted to learn.

If a gene could be isolated that shows that intelligence is linked to race, I would probably believe it because the circumstantial evidence already exists.  In Russian schools, as I was told by a very intelligent woman who came from there, children were taught, and this was actually printed in their textbooks, that black people were less evolved than white people.  She told me that she felt bad for them that they wouldn't have the same capacity as we do.  While this statement is shocking and I don't believe it to be true, I'm not surprised that the world has its own spin on what being a particular race really means.

All I'm saying is don't be so close-minded to the concept that we are NOT all created equal.  The evidence is there to the contrary.  LeBron James was guaranteed from birth to be a better basketball player than physicist...just like Dr. Watson would have made a terrible point guard.  *LOL*

Seems like Galileo underwent a similar castigation by the Inquisition, winding up under house arrest for life. Dr. Watson is in good company, and deservedly so. His critics are nothing more than a tubful of politically-correct, self-inflating whoopee cushions who get their talking points by watching Worldwide Wrestling Federation commentaries. Hang in there, sir.

rightmight is so wrong. I'm a pilot (been flying all my life), Director of software engineering and I was the smartest guy in my physics and math classes - and I'm black. In fact my tested IQ puts me in the 98th percentile in the U.S. I am smarter and more creative than almost everyone I work with - who are 95% white.

Why are there not more black pilots? Economics and access. It costs money to learn to fly and you have to have a solid educational foundation before you start taking lessons. There just aren’t enough black students with the foundation and the means to learn to fly (or to qualify in the Air Force today).

Remember the Tuskegee Airman? Back then the U.S. Army Air Corps tried to say that black people couldn’t be pilots “because their brains were smaller”, which is basically the same lame argument that this guy Watson is making - that blacks are inferior intellectually because of genetics. Of course the reality is that black pilots did very well in the war, and excelled at flying airplanes (and I do as well).

No one wants to talk about that fact that after the war, no black pilot would be allowed to fly for the airlines - keeping them (and their children and grandchildren) away from the lucrative jobs, which forced them to live the the worst places and get the worst kind of education available. And remember, this is just one career path - pilots,  blacks faced this type of racism in EVERY career path; and they faced it even beyond the Civil Rights Act (which was only passed in 1963). You must be quite ignorant to not explore the long term impacts of those very racists actions towards blacks in America.

And remember, America has ALWAYS had Affirmative Action. Up until the Affirmative Action laws were passed, WHITE people had ALL of the Affirmative Action. If a black guy and a white guy went in for a job, even if the black guy was smarter and more qualified, the white guy would get the job. Why? Because they were white. This went on for hundreds of years, so if you want to talk about Affirmative Action, talk about that whole spectrum and not just the recent history.

What I find really sad and telling is that whenever a statement like Watson’s is made some white people come out of the woodwork to agree and basically support the racist argument. But as soon as a black person says there is still racism in America, the same white people say, “What racism?”.

Let me also say there are more people who are not racist that people who are - thankfully. I’ve had many white people who have been mentors and friends along the way of my career. Unfortunately they (like some on this board) sometimes naively believe that because they are not racist, racism is largely dead.

Consider this - when I go to the mall and I’m just dressed in casual clothes, a whole bunch of you would see me and just assume that because I’m black that you’re smarter than me.  But the reality is that I am most likely a whole lot smarter than you, and you would never know it unless we sat down and played chess or took an IQ test together. And I’m not alone.

I just have a simple question.  I wonder how the opinions would change or how the reactions of the media and our politicians would be if the results of IQ testing were reversed?  How would the 'African-Americans' respond?  How would the media respond?  How would the liberal 'Whites' respond? Hmmm . . .  I wonder just how 'liberal minded you would be if 'you' were rated at the bottom?  Take this for what it is . . . Just exactly what do 'you' really know at this so-called High Technology age of development?  Galileo was nearly executed for having made statements about the Sun being the center of the solar system . . . and there have been many examples of religious folks being persecuted for believing differently than the 'normal' main stream!  Cripes, its happening now in our own country . . . USA!!   It is absolutly for certain that most progress for the human race came from those who 'questioned' their surroundings and the norm and opposed the status quo and in many many cases they were persecuted or ostracized as a result.  Mainstream is a parasite!  They take the workings of good honest and sincere men and women who are curious about their origins and what the workings of the world, nature, and our universe and turn it into something political or 'my side against your side'!!  It is due to 'Mainstreams' inability to try to relate in any other way than the 'popular' way . . . which now has become the PC way!!  The only true way to understand and learn is to put your emotions, pride, and ego to the side and investigate honestly and sincerely and without 'judgement'.  If you have a diability and don't recognize it or admit to it . . . how can you ever expect to become a 'whole being' .  .  . be happy . . . be the person you really should be.  Oppose the facts and therefore oppose who and what you really are and you will live a lie.  Intelligence and ability to have a quality life don't necessarily go together!  Nor does being less intelligent mean that you can't lead a qualtity and fruitful life that has a great deal of satisfaction and success.  Deny who you are and become what the 'Mainstream' popular beliefs tell you to be you will most likely not be too happy.  It's sad but it appears that in todays society we teach our kids and each other to 'fit in' and not to truly be themselves and respectful of each other differences . . . no matter what they may be.  Fit in and compete!  Bummer!  We all lose . . . just take a look around with your eyes open!

My daughter is studying to be a chemical engineer.  She is white.  Number of minority classmates? "0"

25 years in the Air Force.  Percentage of black pilots and navigators?  Too small to calculate.  Way less than 1%.

Doctors, Philosophers, Mathemeticians?  Give me a break!

How can someone observe the virtual absence in the math, science and technical fields and not observe the same?  Leave the racial nonsense behind and focus on the facts.  Affirmative Action couldn't fix the disparity and never will.

Conversely, all the speed positions in athletics?  Drum roll please...Black!  Go figure.  This is not a pejoritive statement, just the facts that the PC crowd supresses.

Completely ridiculous.  No one has yet found a specific gene that determines intelligence, so certainly the prevalence of this gene or genes in one race over another cannot be substantiated.  If we follow the reasoning of some of the debaters below than it would be reasonable to assume that Asians are intellectually superior to all other races since they do tend to get better grades and test scores.  And since Asians tend to be the most populace, then it would be reasonable to assume that we are procreatively superior to other races as well.  Lets not jump to conclusions before we have data that is derived from and can be validated through replicateable scientific experiments.

This is merely part of an old argument "nature vs. nurture".  The difference between races and also disparities between members of the same race can be more accurately explained by examining the socio-economic conditions that afflict them since these relationships have been studied extensively.  For example, what is the difference between an illiterate white man living in the US and an illiterate black man from Africa.  The fact that both men are illiterate could be based on numerous factors, such as they both had to sacrifice getting an education to provide for their families by starting work at an earlier age.  One could also argue that the black man is smarter as his illiteracy is due to the likelihood he doesn't have access to an education at all or the quality of that education is severely lacking.  Whereas the white man has consciously rejected a high quality education that is readily available to him in the US.  

This issue is very complex and cannot simply explained away by looking at superficial conditions.  

I disagree with tired. I believe it has to do with the receptivity of certain ethnic groups to new ideas, new advancements and new technologies. And I agree with GuitaristGuy01. I believe the problem is that the secondary education that these "bright, wealthy Africans" are recieving in more advanced countries will do them no good back in their home country. They are going to stay where their education and skills are appreciated and can be used.

How long have we been sending Peace Corp. volunteers to Africa? Since the 60s, right? These volunteers have been sent to teach Africans farming, new technologies, and other important skills as well as teach their children reading, mathmatics, science, etc. It's been almost 50 years. What is there to show for it? The industrial revolution, which revolutionized economics and society in general, occured within the span of 50 to 60 years! Instead of working together to advance as a people, groups and tribes fight against each other and try to rule and oppress each other. Same as in certain places in the middle east. The rest of the world is not doing this to them. They are doing it to themselves.

Here we find ourselves hard on the rocks of the 1960's generation (me) and its blind quest to legislate a perfect world.  The whole notion of PC implies that we actually KNOW what we are talking about and that all answers are in.  Watson makes a perfectly correct observation re IQ's in different people.  Whether the difference is genetic, environmental, educational, or the act of space aliens is subject to interpretation and should definitely be investigated much further.  However, the real causation cannot be investigated when the requirement to already know the answer (to be PC) precludes even mentioning the observation in public.  So, the media and purveyors of PC thought have effectively eviscerated the academy and perverted its purpose in support of a peculiar political construct.  We can only hope that Dr. Watson, facing the PC Inquisition, has his fingers crossed behind his back and is muttering beneath his breath "Nevertheless".

i believe the distinctions of intelligence as related to racial identity is absurd, but is more

racially attributable to the opportunities closed to those of the more populated economicaly

distressed regions of all countries.

The Caucausians and every other blissfully ignorant race still amaze me.They seem to forget about where aids came from,where all the "other" bad things came from, and how they built the "land of the free and home of the brave" on the fact they they stole from others to try to make something that wasn't theirs their own.Melanin is a big issue today, but yet tanning beds and plastic surgeons make a killing off of these kind. science is just another way for man to try to be God, and that is something he will NEVER be.Judgement is coming.

In my opinion, the theory used by Watson was sound. It is not plausible for geographically isolated populations to ALL have achieved the exact same capabilities in any one area(be it athletic ability, spatial reasoning, language ability etc.) However, as for how it relates to America(and Canada, since not everyone lives in the US :) )there is definitely no consensus. Perhaps originally there were large, innate differences between certain populations. Perhaps not. But, if any specific trait, such as intelligence,  was innately greater in any population, then the large amounts of interbreeding, going back many generations by now, have diminished, if not altogether destroyed the credibility of the argument that whites are smarter than blacks.  Right now, we should be focusing more on an individual assessment of ability, especially in business relations, arguing Watson's mostly incorrect comment on black workers being less intelligent and less driven than other raced workers.  There, I think that Watson is completely wrong. If there is a significant difference between black and white populations, we will never know, because by the time that racially discriminate scientific tests are sanctioned, the differences between race will be even lesser than they are now(due to even more interbreeding).

However,  I do not fully disagree with Watson's comments on the  "inherently gloomy" prospect of Africa, for more than one reason.  Lets assume, just for ease of explanation, that Africans(predominatly, though incidentally not completely,  just to burst the bubble that everyone in Africa is black) are, on the average, less intelligent than North Americans(once again, I did NOT say "whites"). In Darwinian evolution, outliers that are "better able to survive" (ie. those with higher IQ's, for arguments sake) would survive longer, acquire more wealth, and have the finances necessary to produce more viable children than the others in the population. Eventually, this would even the playing field for Africa, and equalize IQ's between Africa and any other studied group. The problem lies in the fact that many of Africa's bright people, from wealthy, bright African parents, come to first world countries to receive a post secondary education. Many never go back.

Therein lies the Africa problem. If all the brightest leave, and only those of substandard IQ remain in Africa, then how can Africans, regardless of race, raise their IQ level as a continent? How can a significant number of intelligent, determined people, better the continent as a whole? There won't be enough to form a stable opposition to the civil strife already deeply rooted in Africa.

So, the problem of Africa, may not be so much of a racial issue per se, as it is an outmigration of the intelligent outliers IN Africa.

I retract part of my previous statement. I have read a book that has opened my eyes quite a bit on this subject. Read "Race and Culture" by Thomas Sowell (who is a black man). He states that the popular belief in cultural relativism (the belief that environment or society's rules and regulations [i.e. "racism"] has formed an ethnic group into what it has become) is keeping us behind in political policy and human understanding as a whole. He states that: "A prime obstacle [to this understanding] is the prevailing intellectual vision which not only insists on a cultural relativism that denies that some cultures (or races---he uses either of these words to describe ethnicity) are more advanced than others, but which also treats group progress [or lack of progress] as a function of the way those groups are treated by "society".  He uses numerous GLOBAL examples of certain ethnic groups (Jews and certain Asian and European cultures) succeeding economically and technologically under extreme social oppression.

We don't have extreme social oppression (i.e. forced labor camps, slavery, mass internment, discrimination based on ethnicity) in America today (although certain groups like to think so) and numerous opportunities ( affirmative action, massive federal funding for minority programs, public and privately funded college scholarship programs) for minorities, but the number of achievers in certain minority groups are just not rising, despite all of the funding being pushed into these programs.

I agree with Watson---I believe he was approaching the issue as a scientist with an unbiased opinion and until we can get over ourselves, mature a little bit, learn to listen, and discuss issues such as this without closing our ears (or picking out ONE WORD to focus on) then we may just be alright someday.

What I find so infuriating about this situation with Dr. Watson is that he is "black"listed for uttering a sentence which some find as "racist". The Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory has suspended him over this silly sh**. This man obviously has a brilliant mind with much to contribute to the world of science and health. But, according to the Board of Directors, that contribution is worth much less as compared to what they consider a derogatory remard about blacks. Pardon me, aren't we living in the US where we are guaranteed the right to free speech??

No, blacks are not stupid. They are smart enough to sit on their butts, deliver more babies while our tax dollars provide their homes, utilities, food and healthcare. I think they must be pretty doggone smart!

Racists never cease to amaze me.  The last time I checked the polar icecaps are melting, and the world is at the brink of nuclear war.  Yeah, sounds pretty smart to me.    

SpiralSun1

What tommyrot!...While there is evidence to say that there IS a definite gap in the IQ level of blacks and whites (a mantra oft chanted by white "Aryan" -snicker, snicker!- groups, and repeated by you in various forms within your post) there is NO EVIDENCE to suggest that this gap has a RACIAL basis.  The environement in which people grow up influence their IQ (both individual and collective) to a large extent.  At different satges of our growth we assimilate information from our surroundings through different mechanisms (such as peer learning), process it using methods demonstrated by our peers and the role models our immediate environement provides, approach problems with the temperaments and attitudes that deemed to be valid (again, through the examples that we have seen) and are cognizant of the world at the level our surroundings lets us.  These (information gathering, processing, temperament, cognizance) are components of that quality which we try to measure using the IQ.  I am perfectly willing to bet that if you test the IQ of youth growing up in affluent black households against those from similarly situated white youth, you wont see your "30 point difference" between them.

And why are you silent about the fact that whites fall below Asians in their IQ level?  ....maybe that has a RACIAL basis too, right?!  Perhaps the Asians should feel gloomy about the white race, since the white IQ can't improve beyond a certain level....(Of course, the standard white response would be "everything was done by Europeans" and the standard Asian response would be "yeah, built on the backs of our civilzations and science, which were well developed when you were still swinging from branch to branch.." and ad infinitum.

iWorshipGodJesusChrist

Man you scare me..Earth is 5000-6000 years old?!  May be spiralsun1 is right; IQ might be racial, and Homo inferus iunctus civitas (figure that out!) might have reached the apex of its intellectual development....

Of course there are no substantive differences between races.  People of all races are fundamentally equal, so blacks must dominate professional basketball and football because they work harder.  (Is that a PC enough explanation?)

When we see seeminly enlightened scientist like James Watson voice these views, we remember only the limitations of humans. Watson, and anyone else that may choose to comment in this way, is just parading the fact that he is only a product of his upbringing. Even the fact that he has worked long and successfully on some of the greatest human accomplishments does not change or overshadow the reality that he still carries his own bagagge and prejudice.

The key here is to understand that these prejudices are like glasses (sun glasses if you will) that limit and govern everything that the person is capable of percieving. So it is no surprise that Watson would feel this way or that most of us would agree with him on the deepest level. Look around you, is it not obvious that we have developed a pretty self-serving civilization.

We wouldn't dare ask Watson why he feels that Asians score higher and seem much more clever than whites, because this might render our status more vulnurable. Yet, instead of treating the blacks with basic dignity and allowing africa and all of the other "developing" countries a chance at fair trade (which might actually allow them to have adequate schools for these people who we are "testing" against our educated selves); we alianate them and reinforce the idea that they are not quite human enough-every chance we get.

What is even more interesting then, is that after consistantly treating them in this manner, we would be surprised at their lack of progress. It is very cruel to tie someone's leg to a pole, while others are allowed to run freely in a race, and then- at the finish line- make jokes, write volumes of "scientific" works, "develop" theories, and pass judgements  about why that person's inelect is the reason why he was not capable of finishing the race( never mind that we tied his leg to a pole).

Why do we need to behave this way time and again? If we truly are superior, then why does it seem that our superiority can only depend on the inferiority of this group? Why do we need tofoster these ideas in order to feel better about our selves? Perhaps we have not evolved (even the nobel winners amongst us) to a level where we can see past our own limitations.

Spiralsun,

Your comments are very upsetting. Yes numerous tests conducted by white institutions have proven over and over again that most non whites score lower on IQ scores. To make the assumption that the population of the entire continent of Africa is retarded is a racist comment at the very least. The current situation of Africa is not just a condition of lack of intelligence of its inhabitants. You have to look at the bigger picture before you make statements like that on a public forum.

spiralsun,

Very articulate and accurate description of the nature of the world today and all that we stand to lose.  Thank Oden for People like you!

I'm a white man and  a Born Again Christian who usually ONLY votes republican.  Science is man's attempt at understanding Christ's Truth.  Quite often independent from Him and everything He stands for.  It has good and bad.  And what a bad side it has.

I don't believe in Evolution.  The Earth is probably around a few thousand years old.  5-6k or more.

This is actually very typical science.  This scientist is hardly unique in what he believes.  What makes him unique is that he came out and showed his cards.  They are all wrong.  Their IQ tests have no merit.

The darker skinned man was once called 3/5 of a man.  Today, a child in a woman's womb is called "potential life."   One group enslaved.  The other group murdered.  More murdered than even Hitler and Stalin in the US alone since 1973.  Will NEVER vote on Democratic ticket.

Jesus Christ will return again and all men will answer to Him.

   Actually MOST researchers know as fact that there is a HUGE difference in IQ between blacks and whites -- especially between blacks in Africa and whites, because the blacks here are mixed with whites on average 20% genetically. African black populations are up to 30 IQ points lower in some areas on average. That is the retardation level for us... Depending on whther their poitics depend on this gap not being there, they argue over why it is there, not IF it is there!

The layperson is taught to ignore it for social and political reasons by a constant barrage of TV shows with "smart" black characters like the "Steve Irkel" character on a popular TV show or the hero of movies like "evolution" -- where a black scientist saves the day against a background of extremely stupid white people. Reality is different. There IS a gap, and it seems to be MOSTLY genetic. Head start programs and the like can make immediate changes in IQ -- up to 4 IQ points in some cases -- but ALL the gains are invariably lost just a few years later. The IQ gap re-emerges.

The "No Child Left Behind" program is another program based on the wish that we were all equal or equal in potential. It is another monumental waste of money. Most "successful" schools simply lower their standards or change the tests to be easier so a higher perrcentage pass.

There are also psychological differences between blacks and whites found everywhere in the world where blacks are regardless of culture. One of these is low time preference. Blacks tend to prefer smaller rewards now rather than waiting or working for larger rewards later -- the opposite of the results we find in European children. These are stable temperamental differences. Watson was EXACTLY right. Moreover, all of this fits with our knowledge of how evolution works. All the pieces of the puzzle fit together -- and support a unified picture of race differences that make sense. To say all the races are equal does not fit with the data, with evolution as we know it, or with common sense.

Our future depends on seeing the world accurately. We stand to lose everything by race-mixing. It is truly genocide of the European soul which has given us so much beauty and hope in the world. Not acknowledging these facts is a crime.

James Watson is a hero.

Honestly, people. In regards to Stephen Gould's critique of the Bell Curve: To truly believe, in this day and age (in civilized, industrial societies), that there is a need for "equal opportunity" is absolutely ludicrous. There are still racists out there, don't get me wrong. But the world is not full of them, as the NAACP would like you to believe. The lawyers and spokespeople running this group would all be out of a job if they touted anything different.  It is in their best interest to keep the popular media believing that every issue is a race issue.

It's becoming so that a person can't even make an innocent observation without being labeled a racist. Soon enough, we won't be allowed cream in our coffee without being labeled a racist. I believe our friend, Mr. Watson, crossed a social observation with a scientific observation and, unfortunately, as with all popular media today, reporters have tried to sensationalize this comment and create a furor within the "black community" to sell more newspapers or magazines and, in turn, create more "news" for them to report. Until people grow up and see how we are all being manipulated by the media and maybe start treating "race" issues as socio-economic issues, we will NEVER be able to advance as human beings.

Your comments are also not scientific because scientists are not allowed to study race. Current ideologies and theologies oppose the study of racial characteristics. It is career suicide. Until this opposition subsides, there will be very little advancement in this area. Certainly, some racial differences are valid, as has been found regarding health and medical treatment. For now, any acceptable opinion is valid. Racial understanding is anecdotal. There is no truth. All are truly equal. Ignorance is bliss.